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Let's talk about.... Warriors

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  • Let's talk about.... Warriors

    I would like to get a discussion going about the warrior-class, and specifically, the lack of utility/usefulness of this class at higher levels/wars etc.

    As such, I would love to have input from sapphire/diamond players that war often, as well as people who DON'T like warriors, and anyone with fairly high level (40-48) warriors.

    As a brief background
    Gox1201 - lvl 235 player - mid garnet tier - most dragons capped at 44/45 - low-end sapphire team


    The bottom half of this post will be a bit of a wall of text, so feel warned



    Right, now I used to like warriors quite a bit, until two things happened almost simultaneously

    Firstly, explosive shield stopped being something that kept my warrior alive and became something that disappeared as soon as a single tower shot at it once, and yet two rage was gone
    Secondly, warriors stopped being able to kill anything in wars, as tower HP was high enough that hammer (repair) spam, could out-heal the DPS the warrior could put-out.

    So I decided to look at what makes certain warriors "work" and others ... not.

    I came up with a few key points in what I believe makes a "good" warrior, and certain things I believe makes a "bad" one. Please feel free to jump in and elaborate/give your own thoughts

    1. The Good shield spell vs Bad shield spell

    I firmly believe that shields that pop after a percentage damage (e.g. explosive), are doomed to failure at higher levels. Best example I have is Tarand's explosive shield. This is supposed to absorb somewhere between 40% base hp as damage before popping. Which on paper seems OK, but realistically, a single shot from a lvl 40 ice turret pops the shield, making you a sitting duck. I feel strongly that doesn't matter what this percentage is, these shields will always let you down at higher levels.

    For a level 45 Tarand, this shield absorbs a maximum of 3.948 million damage, which seems like a lot, but its not even two shots from a top level flak cannon. This is in theory however, practically a single shot from a level 45 ice turret destroys this shield, leaving you dead in the water.

    Compare this to a level 45 Algor's heatshield, which heals 20%, but also absorbs 40% of all damage dealt over 5 seconds. In practice, on a long island, this shield will take at least 2 shots from 7 towers. Assuming its roughly 7 lvl 45 damage towers, with 2 mages and a storm, your looking at 14 shots, each averaging around 2million damage, or in other words it will absorb 40% of 14million dmg, or 6 million damage, while still healing 20%.

    Lastly, there is the color of the shield, with white shields naturally much more useful than blue or red.


    2. The method of healing

    Any very high level warrior needs an ability to regain health constantly, take Skarr/Algor with heatshield, Abbraxxis with his shield, or even Gloomclaw. Healing is required.

    However, when the healing is a separate spell, which you need to choose to utilise vs. your shield, we have a problem.

    A good example is Sage. There simply is no scenario where the 2 rage spent on the heal, is equal or superior to just casting shield again. Even when between islands, you would be better served banking the rage, using shield as you turn and then using your DPS dump/reshielding, than using the heal.

    A good scenario is with skarr/algor - where the healing is built into your primary defense shield, where you get both for the single 2 rage spend.


    3. The DPS burst

    The major drawback for warriors are the inabilty to quickly kill a specific target. The best example of this is during wars where hammers are spammed. You need to be able to take down a mage tower ASAP, before it drains all your rage. There have been a few vague attempts at improving warrior DPS, but most of these have fallen massively short.

    Superheated breath coming to mind as a really badly designed spell - *a* it drains rage, *b* the damage boost is minuscule


    For a warrior to have any real chance of success, you really need a near nuke ability - the best I've encountered was Skarr's white flux spell. This basically guaranteed that you would be able to destroy at least 1 tower, and damage the ones around it, as long as you were quick. Algor has his white shout spell, which is also very effective, although probably (and this is my opinion), slightly worse than Skarr's spell.

    On the other end of the spectrum, you have sage with Thunder. I have massively mixed feelings about this - it usually turns into a button spamming fest, with almost no skill involved in flying, no real decision-making process either. Turn corner, spam spam spam till it triggers before blue mage disables/shoots. See a really well-constructed base lose 5-10 towers due to no skill. Hmmm no.

    Although this makes the warrior feel "strong" it fails to differentiate a good vs bad flier, which is something we need.


    4. PVP- war

    So why are so few warriors used in high-end wars?

    Most war runs aim for 5 flames, and work on the principle of the first flier preparing the base, and the second flier clearing it.

    Hunters are immensely popular due to 3 reasons (as lead, but sometimes also as follow)
    1. They skill differentiate - a bad flier with say... hauheset ... gets nearly nowhere, yet someone who is excellent at flying him, can absolutely decimate even a very very high/near max base.
    2. They have excellent burst dps - which means you can usually kill the tower of choice, even when spammed with hammer heals
    3. They have excellent negation/avoidance/control skills. This means you can dictate the battle from an attacker point of view, by cloaking/hiding/avoiding/shutting down the enemy. Its the thinking man/woman's bird of choice.

    Now sorcerors used to be the red-head stepchild, but this has to some degree been fixed - they are rage sinks, but with excellent damage/aoe damage potential, or rock solid control, as long as the base has been properly prepared.

    Good examples are Fae/Phasmos. Both are excellent in their own way and very useful as clean up. Phasmos because it plays similar to a hunter, Fae because the control element is rock solid.

    So why don't warriors work?

    IMHO, lack of burst dps is the number one culprit. For most warriors, there simply is no way to out damage hammer spam.
    Second, and also significant is the lack of options when rage depleted. Most hunters when out of ammo or even low on rage, can disengage and recuperate (think cloak), when a warrior runs out of rage, and shields are down/locked down - the warrior is dead. Fullstop.

    Lastly, and not least at all, is the lack of skill differentiation. Warriors in current form just generally don't distinguish between a good and bad flier. I had high hopes for gloomclaw, but by all reports it seems this was misplaced.


    So looking forward, there are some concerns with the mythic emerald, and per proxy thus the new season's divines (since they usually share from the top tier abilities).

    The warrior beserk costs *3* rage, and essentially gives battlecry+vampiric touch. I'm sure he will be very powerful in pvE, but I fail to see how often I will have 3 rage to spend on a warrior, and then it gets cancelled by the first mage tower. He has very little true burst damage, and I fail to see any scenario where he would be useful as a lead dragon. It remains to be seen if his DPS will be sufficient as the wingman, to clear a base completely with hammer spam going down.

    However, the goal of this post is not to speculate on the non-released dragon, but rather to get a discussion going on warriors, and what YOU think can be done to get them viable late game/high end pvp.

    Anyways, that's my wall of text, I would love some input from all seasoned flier, even if you hate warriors - please articulate why - as to what you think is missing with the class, and what you want changed so they become viable war/pvp/endgame fliers.

    Gox
    Last edited by gox1201; 05-22-2017, 12:27 PM. Reason: this and that

  • #2
    I think things should be this way:
    - Hunter - weakens a base by taking out targeted towers but cannot be expected to clear everything
    - Sorcerer - follows a hunter and uses rage, and the lack of mages, to decimate whats left
    - Warrior - somewhere between the two for when the Hunter can't get all those mages so a tank might be better. It has to hit everything that is left.
    So, I don't see burst DPS as being a Warrior thing and think increasing it would be a mistake. They did that with Sorcerers and now we have things like Phasmos who is advertised as being "like flying a Hunter" - let Hunters fly like hunters. Warriors need to be a tank - take lots of damage and battle on. Right now, Warriors have 30-50 percent more health than a comparable Hunter. Should that be higher? Twice the health?

    Comment


    • #3
      I brought this up when they asked for feedback on Emerald Dragons. This is my rundown of the classes (that some disagree with, fine):

      Warriors
      Weakness: Average damage, but slow
      Strengths: High health (tank)
      Good Spells: Increase health (better tank), reduce health loss (better tank), deal damage (make up for weakness)
      Favorite Spells: Seething Spark, Heat Shield


      Hunters
      Weakness: Low health
      Strengths: High, focused damage (lead strategical dragon)
      Good Spells: Create strategical advantage for flying (better focused damage), help following dragon (better strategical lead), avoid damage (make up for weakness)
      Favorite Spells: Cloak, Deathgaze, Invert, Steal Essence


      Sorcerers
      Weakness: Slow, low Damage
      Strengths: Incredible Spells (clean-up strategical dragon)
      Good Spells: Deal damage, reduce loss of health, be generally incredible (make up for their weakness and allow them to serve their purpose strategically)
      Favorite Spells: Frozen Tomb, Thunderstorm, Invincibility Shield, Northern Lights, Southern Cross


      I rate spells on all dragons using this rundown, and adding my favorite spells just for shits and giggle. I HATE flying warriors, and will not fly a warrior that doesn't have Heat Shield or Seething Spark. In my opinion, Seething Spark is one of the best, and underappreciated, spells in the game. A warrior needs resists to tank well (which is why Mehaten is Meh at best), and needs to be able to dish damage fast. That is why all the "good warriors" are good, they dish out damage. Seething Spark is a pseudo shield that ALSO increases damage. Golden shit right there.

      On my rosters, I have very few warriors. Period. On my 128 I have Scorchil (has both my favorite spells plus two resists) and Quetz (breedable then dumped). On my 242 I have Avalanche (dumping him for Deci next event, but has heat shield and seething spark, plus stinky breath) and Algor (Heat Shield plus Dreadful Roar and two resists). I just don't like warriors. They are chunky, don't take much finesse to fly, and even the best flier can't be super strategical with them. Do they have purposes? Maybe.
      Love Red,

      Leader of Rulith
      Lover of Spreadsheets



      Helpful Threads:
      How to Build YOUR Ultimate Breeding Path
      Red's Breeding Paths: Sapphire to Emerald

      Rulith's Website:
      All Breeding Paths
      Red's Guide to Flying Hunters
      Dragon's, etc.

      Social:
      Twitter - @TheRedDelilah
      Twitch

      Comment


      • #4
        I think things are fine as is. Keep the classes differentiated. Warriors do fine on undefended bases but not with hammer spam, as stated above. Thats ok. Great flyers can get through spam with hunters, at least sometimes. I think thats balanced. If warriors were given the capabilities of hunters but didnt require a high degree of skill, then they would be op. If they did require the skill, then they would basically be hunters.
        _____________🗡🐥🔪_____________

        Comment


        • #5
          One compromise would be to occasionally release a warrior with a spell that typically goes with another class, ala fennrok or skarr. That should go for all drags, lochsvur with his spark was so much fun to fly. Ive always wondered how a warrior with SE would do...🙊
          _____________🗡🐥🔪_____________

          Comment


          • DracolichKing
            DracolichKing commented
            Editing a comment
            Give warrior a white 0 rage self-destruct ^-^

        • #6
          I agree with everything aside from the part of about "skill of flyers", to me that is immensely irrelevant, the only thing that matters with these dragons is can they get the job done.
          How much "skill" it takes to accomplish that job doesn't, or should not, make a bit of difference, it's all subjective.

          Comment


          • Owlrager
            Owlrager commented
            Editing a comment
            You dont think skill should be required to take down hard bases??

        • #7
          I think Warriors which are bad suffer mainly because of bad spells.
          The Warrior Class is suppose to be a tank.

          However, The game doesn't allow them to tank.
          Take for example the resist spells!

          Players use Flak cannons, Fire Turrents, & Ice Turrents.
          The Warriors are given maybe 1 of the above 3.
          Than they are giving some other random resist which is usually irrelevant on some bases.
          Warrior literally need to have 2 of the above 3 to be tanking effectively.

          Another example the shield spells!

          They give them the same crappy shield spells.
          Those spells pop none stop.
          They need a shield which stays for a while which can help stop or reduce damage + add health or more rage.

          If the game refuses to do any of those things, Than the game needs to give the Warrior class dragon avoidance spells.

          The funny thing is I hope the game does refuse.
          Than maybe I can get my dream Warrior Dragon!
          I always wanted a Warrior Dragon with Cloak to be honest.

          I like adding Cloak as an add on spell to my Warrior Dragons.
          It helps them regenerate rage..
          The only thing which is sad is I can only do it 1 time during a fight.

          I think it would be great to have a Warrior Dragon which naturally has Cloak on it.
          It would probably be to powerful for a Warrior though.

          Comment


          • defpolak
            defpolak commented
            Editing a comment
            During certain pvp events where you just need 70% to get full credit, or when hunting rss, I would equip skarr with cloak all the time. The majority of bases you run across mid level (100-225) have their highest defenses on the middle long island. Skarr would make the turn, flux-flux-sacrifice-flux-cloak. Or hold off on the cloak if you can to do more damage and then cloak. And just skip the high level defenses that would normally do some heavy damage. After the turn the rest of the base is easy to finish and get 70%

            Granted cloak on a warrior may not work in war - but it does help at other times.

          • GreenMT
            GreenMT commented
            Editing a comment
            Not saying cloak is useless in warriors, but it won't help a warrior much. Hunters can cloak over a base and kill towers when the dragon is directly above towers as the dragon exiting the island. Hunters can also quickly clear bunch towers then cloak to maximize recovery. Warriors can't do either of these two things well because warriors need time to do damage.

            Therefore, reborn Phoenix suits warriors better. It gives two things: HP and time to recover without skipping towers.

          • PlayerJ
            PlayerJ commented
            Editing a comment
            @GreenMT

            I disagree!
            I think cloak can help a Warrior a lot!

            Well you have to take into consideration.
            What happens if you cloak.
            Than rebuild up rage while in the cloak?
            Once you come out of the cloak again you can do your spells.

            In addition, Hunters usually have some problems coming out of cloak because they can't handle the hits when they come out.
            They can be vulnerable.

            A warrior on the other hand is naturally made to tank some hits.
            Thus, when they come out it isn't really damaging for them.
            In addition, they will come out with the ability to at least activate a spell which was regenerated when they was cloaking.

            A warrior with active spells is far more deadly than 1 with out.
            Last edited by PlayerJ; 05-24-2017, 09:56 AM.

        • #8
          An idea for warriors:

          1) Against the odds
          - basically the warrior shield percentage absorbed / health/ damage goes up with the number of defenders. This is useful in creating something that is not overpowered when flying normal pvE or undefended bases, but helps warriors have a chance against maximally defended bases.

          or

          2) Berserker rage type of spell
          -- when warrior health drops below certain percentages, dps goes up (eg enters a berseker rage), goes away when healed/external addon is used to buff (e.g. equipped invul)

          Comment


          • #9
            Warriors and Sorcs to a degree just dont have a combat role.

            (1) If you have a nuclear bomb (hunter) to obliterate an enemy why bother using a sherman tank (warrior) or a bunchof angry farmers with pitch forks ( sorcerer )

            (2) In the event that the nuclear bomb doesnt obliterate the enemy just use another nuclear bomb for the reasons listed in (1)

            ​​​​​​​

            Comment


            • #10
              Tbh all classes need a redesign from scratch.

              Comment


              • #11
                I have a lv. 50 Algor and I use him for all (difficult) war attacks. I mainly use warriors in war attacks just because they are tanks - equipped with chain lightning - which can free you from nasty defenders when you have no rage for other attacks I mainly use hunters as they are mostly more fun to play.

                Comment


                • #12
                  Hunter is for damage burst, sorcerer is for area efffect, and warrior is for survivability.
                  Warrior needs one of two things (or both):
                  1. Reborn Phoenix. Give warrior a second life
                  2. Damage output increases as health decreases. Warriors gain 10% dps for every 10% health lost. Skilled players will need to balance high attack with low HP.
                  Last edited by GreenMT; 05-23-2017, 01:18 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    What about a rising phoenix but instead of burst damage why not throw a stun in there? Stun towers within the radius like seething spark does to give him a bit of time to recover if he is in a tough section of the base? It would have to be a blue spell for sure, but it would be suiting.

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Zamrok is a different type of warrior...has northern lights (Sorc spell), mystic winds is incredible (deflects mage shots) and superheated breath has been improved. Zamrok is not as boring as Tarand and Algor (tanky warriors).

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        this is a fantastic post!
                        The only thing I differ on is with Sage, I am a decent flyer, But i'll use thunderstorm everytime its up, it is the reason I use sage rather than Tarand when both are capped.
                        The biggest issue, as you point out, is the higher level you get the less effective these birds become

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