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  • Crystalline Shield

    I am posting this question here because the last post on this issue was severely inundated with stuff that doesn't really matter. PGJared CampusLifer can you please give us an answer as to why crystalline shield has a cool down where other shields do not? I just checked and heat shield does not have a cool down when popped by a cannon (that's the only other shield I have active right now) so why does crystalline shield have this?

    Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    Previously, all spells were limited primarily by rage cost only. Cooldown time is a relatively new mechanic that we're testing out on newer spells in hopes that it will give us better tuning beyond only rage cost.

    Comment


    • Robert M.
      Robert M. commented
      Editing a comment
      If by relatively new, you mean "has always been there"...
      Freeze
      Cloak
      Self Destruct

    • EggToken
      EggToken commented
      Editing a comment
      Some spells (and shields in particular) didn't have any internal cooldown, as was referenced in the original question. The cooldown "stat" is something that we would like to append to all spells moving forward so that we can better tune spells more closely without having to change damage numbers or the mechanics behind the spell, as that takes much more time. This doesn't mean everything will have a cooldown, just that the box is there for us to adjust, but it could just be set to 0.

    • NukSooAL
      NukSooAL commented
      Editing a comment
      Would make a lot more sense to test it on Tarands white shield IMO

  • #3
    I really like this concept to be honest.

    A hunter with a shield is quite over powered, and by giving it a cooldown only after it has been popped by either 7 projectiles or by a cannon supershot forces the attacker to focus towers and take them out in a certain order. It is fun to try and skirt this issue when flying him and makes attackers analyze bases better before just randomly throwing in a run.

    Overall i think it adds a LOT of balance to this particular hunter instead of making him super OP like nightshade was.

    Comment


    • #4
      But in the end it all leads back to rage anyway. So you slap a cd on crystalline shield, now when it gets popped youre forced to take damage or hit cloak, which is just another rage drain. A rage drain that isn't on any other shield in the game. As it is, most high level bases have double mage towers at the start so you're running with minimal rage from the getgo, especially vs live defenders. Maybe this would make sense if crystalline shield was on a warrior dragon since they can take some hits and shrug it off, but on hunters its pretty awful.

      Bear, thank you for getting this back on topic...

      Comment


      • Sabin76
        Sabin76 commented
        Editing a comment
        But you glossed over the first thing Mechengg said in response, "a hunter with a shield is quite over powered." A shield is NOT cloak. A hunter's style of attack is vastly different than a warrior (where shields usually live). In order to balance this spell on a hunter, it was decided that it should have a cooldown. You can debate that the cooldown isn't necessary, but you must acknowledge that the same spells on different dragon types result in different levels of power (see: invert on hunter) first.

      • Mechengg
        Mechengg commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks Sabin. This is the point i was trying to get across, that there was now a way to mitigate damage taken by a hunter WHILE still taking down towers. That is where the power in this lies

    • #5
      I was just about to argue that a cooldown isn't needed for Crystalline Shield since it seems to be on par with Heat Shield having the same rage cost and being found mostly on top tier dragons (besides divines).

      I wrote down the pros and cons and realized that both shields might actually be balanced in theory:

      Crystalline Shield:
      2 Rage
      7sec duration
      50% beam attacks
      7 projectiles
      0sec cooldown
      ?sec cooldown if popped

      Heat Shield:
      2 Rage
      5sec duration
      40% beam attacks
      40% projectile attacks
      20% Heal
      0sec cooldown


      (values for seconds and % were taken from amoebastudios.com)

      As for projectile protection you can argue if you prefer Heat Shield's 40% over 5sec or Crystalline Shield's 7 shots over 7sec so I didn't color those.


      EggToken I think on paper both skills look great, Crystalline shield might even look slightly better.

      However if you use them in game, there are more factors such as:
      - High rate-of-fire towers such as Archers will pop Crystalline Shield in a matter of seconds
      - Crystalline shield performs much weaker on higher level bases as you need more time to kill towers and they have more time to deal damage after your shield popped
      - The shields are for different classes. A hunter with a shield that pops is often a dead hunter (unless you dodge with cloak which then is a rage drain and devalues the shield as Roarack mentioned). A warrior with a shield that heals, doesn't pop after a few shots and doesn't go on cooldown is well protected; if his shield goes he still has HP to tank and can shield again without wasting rage on dodging.


      If weaker shields on future hunters is a way to balance the supreme hunter class and trying to make warriors and sorcerers catch up then I guess it's a strategic decision that might be oaky, although I'm more in favor of making the other classes stronger to get them on par instead of nerfing the stronger class.
      Last edited by MareZ; 02-17-2017, 03:49 AM. Reason: Sources of values
      MareZ ~ lvl16X ~ Sapphire Mythic Dragons

      Important Threads to find everything you need

      Comment


      • EmrahT
        EmrahT commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you for good comparing. For a hunter this shield is mostly to protect him a bit and load up ... but the cloak do a similar job so this shield works while attacking . Its hard to say how useful and how great it is... for sure it helps vs beams good...
        But anyway... in the strategy with a hunter its mostly a fast killer and assasin instead of a slow beast , where sorc or warrior dragon more need it. So the usefulness about is a different story... as yu told,... depend on situation too.

      • Bear
        Bear commented
        Editing a comment
        I agree it seems like they are trying very hard to devalue the hunter class every since nightshade. I don't know why they would want to do this. Like you said why not make the other classes better instead of trying to nerf the hunters. Makes me sad, but I'm almost to the point of looking at going back to warriors in recent dragon releases.

    • #6
      Your Cool Down on Crystalline Shield has killed your number 1 hunter Zaru.
      I hope you are happy PG.

      Snow Drop & Frostbite are now fighting for number 1.
      Who would have ever seen that coming?

      Comment


      • Mechengg
        Mechengg commented
        Editing a comment
        Blue spells are defensive, red spells are offensive. There is no way that you could honestly believe that crystalline shield should be red in color.

        Basics young grasshopper, basics

      • PlayerJ
        PlayerJ commented
        Editing a comment
        You are missing the point Mechengg.
        I was simply suggesting that the spell would have been better off with a different spell color than blue.

        I gave red as a quick example.
        I didn't realize you was going to try and break it down to the point that you say red spells are offensive.

        If that is the case, I could recommend changing the spell to a white spell.

        In addition:
        -Not all blue spells are defense.
        Thunderstorm is a blue offensive spell.

        -Not all red spells are offensive.
        Heal marker I consider has a neutral spell.

      • Indi123
        Indi123 commented
        Editing a comment
        PlayerJ - I only read the first couple paragraphs of your response but I didn't see you answer my question re: do you have either of these dragons?

        If you did you would realise the spells don't do the same thing. Eg the hit rate of a fast fire tower like an archer at lvl 45 would wreck crystalline shield almost immediately. See also cannon Supershot. As those are the level towers frost is designed to kill, that's where this is most relevant.

        Shield is only used in a situation where you have to hit while having some form of defense. A prime example would be war. If you're leading with Frost you use cloak so you can go through and remove specific towers to help your backup complete the base. If you're following you need to get 100% so you may use the shield to diminish damage while killing off towers.

    • #7
      What if we simply called crystalline shield crystalline (insert noun of your choice here), and made it unbreakable by cannon towers? It would take away one instance where it goes on cd but leave the cd in place for when it simply gets shattered by number of shots it takes. This would make its use more strategic; against slow towers it will likely get you through, but if you wanna pop it and tough it out vs arrows and cannons you'll likely be a sitting duck when it breaks. Thoughts?

      Comment


      • Rfdblue
        Rfdblue commented
        Editing a comment
        Agree. Having it prevent rage drain and treb stun (ala invincibility shield) would also make it more worthy of being the tier's highlight spell for hunters (like Dessicating Sand was for Sapphire tier). Goes back to the suggestion made by many on the forums - don't nerf hunters, rather make warriors and sorcerors stronger.

    • #8
      I like the idea of it being a white spell. Honestly it is a wasted spell on garnet dragons in its current incarnation. PGJared EggToken CampusLifer

      Comment


      • Bear
        Bear commented
        Editing a comment
        This spell has nothing at all to do with the season. It is on garnet hunters as well. My point is when I look at Zaru (no I don't have him yet) I will probably never use crystalline shield. If it was a white spell it would be more worthwhile on garnet dragons.

      • Mechengg
        Mechengg commented
        Editing a comment
        PlayerJ, in the post above you just f*cking argued that it should be white. Are you stupid?!

      • PlayerJ
        PlayerJ commented
        Editing a comment
        No, Mechengg you didn't understand my above post.
        I was simply having a discussion about crystalline shield.
        I was talking about the pro's & the con's.

        I was pointing out how the spell could have been better.
        This is why bear agreed with me.
        He thought what I was saying was right.
        However, This doesn't mean I want the spell to actually change!

        Garnet Tier has been out with this blue spell for a while.
        No one complained about it when it first came out!
        The Season dragon SnowDrop has this spell.
        No one complained about crystalline shield on Snow Drop when it first came out!
        It would be unjust for the developers to change the spell color now.
        If people wanted the spell to change, They should have asked for a change when the spell first came out.

        If I wanted the spell to change, I would have made my suggestion to change it when the dragons first came out!
        I don't want the spell to change.
        I don't think every single dragon should be over powering.
        I like weak & average dragons thrown in the mix.
        It adds spice & flavor to the game.

    • #9
      I disagree with this comment.
      The spell is perfectly playable in its current form.
      It is to late to change spells now!
      The season is almost over.
      We only have 1-2 weeks left.
      People have invested sigils in dragons already.

      Better luck next season my friend!



      @PlayerJ: Patronising much?

      You mock and laugh at someone's anxiety that they might have chosen wrongly, but the minute a suggestion is made that might improve things for that person and many others in the same position, you are oh so quick to try and deny that chance. Nice.
      Not 'too late' to change other things in game like defence though eh?

      Comment


      • PlayerJ
        PlayerJ commented
        Editing a comment
        No Flames!
        I am against Shady people doing shady things.

        I told people that crystalline shield + cloak was not good.
        I said it from the beginning.
        I told them they should change lines to get Tarand.
        I did this to help them!

        They said I was a noob who didn't know what I was talking about.
        Bear was in that post. He saw me say it.
        He even said I was going off topic.
        Didn't care what I had to say.

        Now he comes here and agrees with me?
        He wants the game to make a change now 2 weeks before season ends?

        Yeah lets ignore the guy who is giving advice on which dragon might be good.
        Lets pick the wrong dragon.
        Than 2 weeks before the season ends lets agree with the guy who is giving out advice.
        What he is saying seems good now.
        Lets try to screw him over!
        Lets have the game developers change the spells so my dragon is super awesome.
        Who cares about the other schmucks.

        What a wonderful strategy Flames!
        Is this the sort of thing you do?
        Try to screw over people who try to help you?

        Than you tell me about defense?
        The defense change was done behind closed doors with out a single soul knowing about it.
        I was trying to help people so they know their defense was being taken away.

        Yeah it is my fault.
        I broke the golden rule.
        Never tell advice to anyone outside of team.

        It is ok.
        Next Season is coming.
        I am not going to say a word.
        Last edited by PlayerJ; 02-20-2017, 09:01 PM.

      • Indi123
        Indi123 commented
        Editing a comment
        You clearly haven't got the foggiest idea what you're talking about. So stop doling out advice. This is like me giving people advice on racehorses when I spend my days trotting around on a 3 legged donkey.

    • #10
      The drags are fine, their spells are fine. There has never been and never will be such a thing as "the best dragon". You can give pros and cons till youre blue in the face but it all comes down to the situation that youre flying in. Some will be better than others in different situations. Theres WAY too many variables to say straight up this drag is better than that drag. Monkey will crush frost in some situations, frost will destroy monkey in others, it all just depends.
      _____________🗡🐥🔪_____________

      Comment


      • Owlrager
        Owlrager commented
        Editing a comment
        Oh I know, Bear. My post was directed to the other people who went on a tangent to start saying this drag > that drag. I agree crystal shield is a bit underwhelming, its not a game changer. It def has its uses tho while not making a dragon too op.

      • PlayerJ
        PlayerJ commented
        Editing a comment
        Bear, I think Owlrager was directing his comment to me.
        However, you are completely 100% correct bear.
        The problem is Owlrager & Mecheng posts are incorrect by their own logic.

        I look at the black & white of a dragon because it is what you can account for!
        You can't account for every single variable.
        It is physically & financially impossible.

        If every single variable could be accounted for, They would no longer be called variables.
        It is the fact that they may or may not happen which is what makes them a "variable" to begin with.

        You can't condemn someone for not addressing every variable situation.
        Than in the same breathe ignore the black & white information in front of you!
        You fall into the same mindset of the person you are trying to condemn.
        Your own logic defeats you.

        In addition, It would be naive to believe their couldn't be a best dragon.
        It would be naive to believe their couldn't be a worse dragon.

        The reason you do pro's and con's is so that you can figure out which dragons may be better than others.
        If you have never seen a bad dragon, You couldn't possibility expect to know what a good dragon looks like.

        The black & white information you see before you is the general rule.
        A variable is an except to the general rule which may or may not happen.
        Their are times when you can have a general rule with out an except.
        However, you can't have an except with out a general rule!

        Crystalline Shield is a Blue spell.
        Crystalline Shield is a Defensive spell.
        This is the black & white information on this spell which hasn't changed.

        Zaru & Frostbite have these spells.
        Now they have said their are variables which are going to make Zaru better in some bases than Frostbite!
        My question is what variable?
        What are you noticing which is making you think Zaru is better than Frostbite in this particular base?

        Think about it!
        You need to know the black & white information in order for you to even suggest 1 dragon is better than another in a base which you think may be a variable.
        If you know absolutely 0 information about the spells on Zaru + Frostbite, You can't really say which one may be better in any base!
        You don't know!
        You don't have enough information to know.

        This is why it is important to go over the Black & White information.
        We need to know what this spell is doing.
        We need to know what this spell isn't doing.
        Knowing this information will help us apply different variable situations more effectively.

        As far as the high school kid goes.
        Everyone was that kid once upon a time.
        The kid will do fine in the work force.
        Schools teach you the black & white information + critical thinking skills.
        The black & white information helps you know the general idea's.
        The critical thinking skills help you solve problems which can arise from variables which you didn't account for.

        Which brings me to my last question:
        Does anyone know how long the Cool Down time on Crystalline Shield is?
        Last edited by PlayerJ; 02-22-2017, 01:23 PM.

      • Mechengg
        Mechengg commented
        Editing a comment
        PlayerJ,

        You are here providing examples, assuming that one or two scenario's consists of enough information to start developing generalities about a subject. That is the problem i have with your drawn out examples.

        Any input information (black and white yes) such as the fact that crystalline shield is a blue spell is crystal clear. Yup absolutely.

        Any information that changes based on scenario (from base to base) is a variable. Yes, you would have to agree that 18 lightning towers vs 18 cannon towers is a variable between the bases right?

        Now what happens when you compare these constant inputs in a variable condition scenario? It has a variable outcome, like anything in physics or mathematics dude.

        Now based on an example:
        Random Dragon with Cannon Resist vs random dragon with lightning resist. Which one is better? Keeping all other information equal? Well that depends on if he is flying through the base with 18 lightning or 18 cannon towers.
        Now do this for a warrior dragon vs hunter for the same two bases? This creates another answer to your question of which is better.
        Then do this for a spell comparison.
        Then for the other spells.
        Then for the other resist.
        Then do it again for the spell colors vs the color of the mage towers.
        Then do it for the player and how fast he can tap the screen vs how fast a warrior dragon shoots to determine which dragon can put out more overall dps.
        Then take into account the players experience with studying the base before hand to determine which towers to take out first.
        Then throw a defender into the mix.
        Then take into account if there are "network errors".
        Then take into account how good the defenders are and what defense abilities they have in their arsenault.
        Then throw another defender into the mix.
        Then take into account what level the towers are.
        Then take into account their arrangement on the base (hundreds of thousands of arrangements right)
        Then do this for your two other attacking dragons if you need to.

        Do you see how all of these VARIABLES (yes outcomes based entirely off of black and white statistics thrown into a variable atmosphere) COMPOUND together? There isn't just 1 or 2 answers. There are millionsof outcomes based off of all these situations so the big point to take out of this is:

        YOU CANNOT ACCOUNT FOR ALL OF THESE SCENARIO'S DUDE AND DON'T EVEN TRY.

        Being this narrow minded will get you in a LOT of trouble in certain professions. Keep it in the back of your mind during your Grade 10 exams buddy

    • #11
      Let's try to get things back on-topic. People with unpopular opinions are still entitled to their opinion.

      Comment

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