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Propositions for better Scaling

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  • Propositions for better Scaling

    The following are some the ideas I have thought of as well as received from others in the forum and community. Please take the time to read as much as you can without falling asleep… Sorry, it’s long!

    Idea #1
    My idea was to create a scaling system to allow the non-spenders to trail close enough behind that the game doesn't implode. The third highest tier and below (till sapphire) are discounted to ~50% off, and the second highest tier is 25% off, with the top tier (for the time) being full price (145k for Legendaries, and 220k for Mythics). My idea involves reducing the number of fragments it takes for a dragon's egg NOT the drop rate of eggs. It would look something like the following:

    *At this time Obsidian is the top tier*
    ~50% off section of 3rd highest tier and below~
    Legendary Sapphire Eggs: 300 fragments (now costing 75k tokens instead of 125k)
    Mythics Sapphire Eggs: 500 fragments (now costing 97.5k tokens instead of 195k)
    Legendary Garnet Eggs: 350 fragments (now ~83k tokens instead of 145k)
    Mythic Garnet Eggs: 500 fragments (now 100K tokens instead of 220k)
    -end section as for present tiers-
    ~25% off section of 2nd highest tier~
    Legendary Emerald Eggs: 500 fragments (now ~100k tokens instead of 145k)
    Mythics Emerald Eggs: 825 fragments (now 165k tokens instead of 220k)
    -end of section for present tiers-
    -Top tier with no discounts-
    Legendary Obsidian Eggs: 700 Fragments (145k tokens)
    Mythic Obsidian Eggs: 1100 fragments (220k tokens)
    -end of section for present tiers-

    If we use this idea of discounting tiers from sapphire+ then the non-spending player base would be able to better keep up with the seasonal release of dragon tiers. This also keeps the top tiers out of reach but allows the tiers to remain at the same price for the spenders to keep spending on, maybe even entice players who are close to spend just to get a head for once. Also, the mystic frags will gain value past sapphire, instead players will want be happy to use the 25-50 frags they have to get a more significant portion of the dragon they wanted.

    Can I get feedback from this? My ideas involve reducing the number of fragments it takes for a dragon's egg not the drop rate of eggs. Why is this not being implemented immediately??? If you like this idea why is it not being fixed?

    Idea #2
    Further ideas on scaling that were brought to my attention by the whales on my team. There are the pitiful amounts of wood in wood packs for max level players. Seeing how the towers now take 1.4+ million wood per upgrade, where are the matching packs to rival the level 78 Storage Hut's capacity of 1.5 Million resources? I remember at level 150 or so I was receiving 400k food/wood packs that basically filled u my entire storage, now I need multiple packs for a single upgrade which seems pitiful for what they should be worth.

    At the minimum there needs to be packs for 750k to a million to help the max bases be able to efficiently keep growing? Once they (the spenders) realize that each level is harder to get to without any help from packs they will leave. No one wants to pay the cashier with nickels and dimes when there are dollar bills in the world. Make a change! If you are planning on changing this, when will it happen and what will the packs entail and how will they scale to levels?

    Idea #3.1
    I also wanted to address the timer problems and how it could be scaled. Now that a tower takes a month to build after level 42 it is impossible to keep up with the "tall not long" base strategy. Non-spenders can't and WILL NOT even attempt building towers past level 41 (which is TWO WEEKS for elite account owners per build). I'm not saying all non-spenders wont attempt these builds but those of us who like the individual prizes in fortification events would rather have a long base of 40s than a short base of level 55s. How fun is that? We can't even build the base we want anymore!!! To fix these, two things need to happen, one being the amount of clocks in gold and bronze chests, and the other being the size of clocks.

    I love saving for gold chests, but at this point the drops of 15x 12hour timers is less valued to me than the 20 healing potions. The legendary timer drops won’t even get me a single building finished, and I’m just breaching level 200. Why aren't the number of speedups in gold chests scaling to the individual's level/tier of dragons? Why haven't you changed this already? What's stopping you from doing it?

    Idea #3.2
    Also, the amount of clocks needed for a single build now is insane. Within the first two hours of fort events I look at my stockpile of timers go from 100-150x 12hours to a pitiful amount of 15min timers. Do you not see a problem here PG? Again, I will use the analogy of “paying the cashier with nickels and dimes” but it's too the extent that we are scrounging for pennies here! Why aren't there 10 day timers so combat the 30day+ builds??? If we want to progress the same amount of levels every month then we are definitely going to need timers to scale with build times. This is such an obvious problem that I have to take a deep breath just to forget that I have paid you money to progress through this game. So, since I (and the entire player-base) need to progress in this game, I will ask what else is needed from the players for you to fix this. How far are you willing to let the game suffer like this? Yes, it makes you money, but how long do you think this is going to last at this rate?

    Idea #4
    Lastly, the build times on insignificant buildings are way out of proportion to what they actually benefit the player. Why does the breeding castle, and incubator take 20days to complete after level 5? I can understand a single week or two weeks but a month to build something that doesn't give any Xp??? WHY? This could be overlooked if we had more timers/larger timers, but it's come to the point where I am equally afraid of the building times for the breeding castle and incubator as I am afraid of the token cost for the cost of garnet Legendaries... Again I will ask: WHY? What was the reason behind this? Was this the plan? Is it just to halve our clocks every fortification event out of spite? Us non-spenders already have to count our pennies to grow a couple levels a month. *I don't see this as an issue that is comparable to all the other issues I listed above, but I do believe you(PG) need to give something to your loyal players instead of a slammed door a both dragon progression and base progression. You’ve made it so the players are force-fed the event dragons since there’s nothing else in the game that is fun in the higher tiers.

    Idea #5
    Just got reminded of one other problem within the game that is halting the progress of players during fort events. The amounts that are able to be traded have remained at 229k for longer than I can remember (tired, so memory’s terrible anyways). When max bases need wood for their builds why can a level 186 supply as much lumber as a level 500? This should’ve been scaled to continue on with the 78 levels of the Storage Hut… If anything, there is a huge advantage for players just hitting the level 186-200 as they can practically send all their resources away and know that their protection percentages will protect the rest of their resource that they weren’t able to send away. With the max storage capacity being 1.15 million at level 186 they can literally send away 60% of their entire storage while a max storage capacity of 1.7 million can only send 45%, leaving the rest unprotected and ready to be stolen. This needs to be scaled. I don’t think I need to do the numbers myself but if we were to keep up with the pattern of transfer amounts till level 186, individuals should be able to send 60% of their entire storage amount that is possible (not the storage hit level they have but what they could have for their level) for their individual level.

    I’m sorry for such the long post and I understand these topics have come up time and time again. I felt like the players were doing more accusations than questioning/providing fixes that could save the game we all love to play. Hopefully you can answer my questions in sections. I didn’t intend to sound accusatory but I know this game has come from PG. I hope to change your ideas with proposals of my own.

    PGJared EggToken CampusLifer @OtherPGPeople

    Feel free to add any scaling fixes that come to mind as well! Hopefully we all get an answer we can comprehend to be a definite promise of change!
    Last edited by XxTrue1xX; 09-10-2017, 08:28 PM.

  • #2
    Great post!


    • #3
      Pg seem to be favoring more of a short term business model, so to answer why havent they done these, its simple - $$$


      • #4
        Great suggestions. Unfortunately, PG have a proven track record of ignoring such ideas. At best they'll tell us that they need to talk about it internally. That's code for "if we ignore it, players will forget".


        • SuavGlav
          SuavGlav commented
          Editing a comment
          The error in the logic here is assuming that PG made a mistake. They didn't make a mistake, they made and continue to make calculated decisions weighing how low they can push the value floor and still entice people to spend. It's one method for making your business profitable.

          They don't need to be enlightened; they need to be spanked.

        • XxTrue1xX
          XxTrue1xX commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree sith you statement of recognizing PG's mistakes but I don't agree with your method of dealing with it. "Spanking" them because you didn't get ehat you want doesn't seem like a good move to me. They have all the power over the physical game. How we can control them is by asking the right questions to result in a change because they don't want to admit their darker methods for a profitable businesses. Thusly the more people who see this thread and their response the better as it puts pressure on them to either admit their methods, or fix the game so they can maintain their reputation as an immaculate comapny focused on their players' needs.

          If this is what you meant by "spanking" them, i am in total agreement. The older players of the game are well respected within the community and have a great influence over the new players and could easily discourage them from partaking in this money trap.

        • SuavGlav
          SuavGlav commented
          Editing a comment
          Well I meant spanking like a parent would spank a child.

          I was being facetious.

          While I support your campaign, I too have become disenchanted with the notion that PG actually takes our opinions to heart when it comes to improving gameplay.

          Two reasons why: nobody from PG who actually plays has a high level account and thus they cannot relate as well to our plight; and while many of our opinions and suggestions make sense when applied to player experience, they do not equate to maintaining or increasing PG's revenue.

          They're not going to regress and make old things cheaper. I seriously doubt we will see any significant uptick in the amount of egg tokens or the value of timers. They may open up new avenues to acquire more of them, but those avenues will always be tied to increased interaction (like Atlas).

          I'd love to be proven wrong here, I would be shocked.

      • #5
        Truth is PG uses tracking tools which monitor the percentage of all players reaching endgame stuff.

        Lets say garnet tier, 10% reached endgame stuff (all dragon maxed bases) after a month.

        Emerald: 12% reached endgame stuff after a month.

        Obsidian: 14% reached endgame stuff after a month.

        So so the answer of PG is: We sell our endgame stuff too cheap we need to REDUCE gold chest goodies.

        We see this trend since platinum came out. They then constantly lowered the goodies.

        Problem here is they took into account the countless hackers and so got WRONG WRONG WRONG data.


        • #6
          The Unanimous sentiment by common players is "I don't need to be on top I just need to feel progress"

          PG obviously does not care about this because it doesn't make them money. BUT what they could do is make the newest tier 25%+ MORE expensive while discounting lower tiers as you suggest. I'm sure its possible to make the lower tier players happy and feel like spending on something that will give them meaningful progression while just blatantly hardcore squeezing the whales. New tier Dragons could even be 400k or something and the whale addicts would get them.

          Also the huge cadence between tiers is horrible! It most certainly is to pressure the frustration = spending point.
          Last edited by Chromat1; 09-09-2017, 05:30 AM.


          • #7
            I really hope PG pays attention to this. I just got my first garnet dragon and I have all other dragons experted except for him. It's incredibly boring. Nothing to do when I log in every day anymore except run my multis on that one dragon. With some spending and a ton of hard work I am hoping to get one new dragon per month going forward. I won't actually be able to level my divines again until I get a second garnet in two months from now. After that it will probably be 3-4 months before I can level them again. This is the point in a game when people get so bored that they go find another game to play to fill their time. And then they end up leaving. I understand that PG is coming out with Atlas to try and combat our boredom and I do hope that will help. But I play the game because of the dragons, not because of boats. The scaling/pacing problem with dragons has got to be addressed. Personally, I don't have a problem with how many tiers of dragons PG releases or how quickly they come out. I understand that it's rough on those who are trying to spend and be on top all of the time and I'm sure many people will blast me for this. But for me it seems that the more dragons they release, the better- as long as they fix the pacing issues. I don't understand how we can tell PG to let us have dragons more quickly (reducing token requirements, etc...) and then tell them to stop releasing tiers so quickly. If the pacing/scaling issue is not addressed, that will be the reason I ultimately leave the game.


            • Warlord
              Warlord commented
              Editing a comment
              CampusLifer PGJared Echo EggToken Must read and pls discuss this internally it's about time

            • NoCover
              NoCover commented
              Editing a comment
              I am in the same boat as Jenny and these are my sentiments exactly. I am following the Icicle 3 path and recently got my first garnet dragon. I play this game several hours a day so I understand your frustration. Right now I can only get one non-divine per month, and that's as a loyal player with light spending. It's disheartening because it doesn't reflect my hard work in the game..

          • #8
            Max hut is actually 82 and 1.7m ever since beta update about 2 weeks ago.


            • #9
              Hope pg responds to this post, they have plenty of time for other posts...


              • XxTrue1xX
                XxTrue1xX commented
                Editing a comment
                It is the weekend so I don't expect a huge organized reply. Hopefully this means that they will think through their answer.

            • #10
              Idea#1 response: why would they only discount for lower tier when naturally the people at higher tier spend more or are more loyal to the game(played for longer)

              Idea 2 response: I agree that PG needs higher amount food and wood packs to scale to the increased cost of builds/dragon feeding

              Idea 3 response: It would be nice to see clocks that are 1day or 5day clocks.. but I'll bit my tongue on the logic you used because all my responses to it are negative

              Idea 4 response: I don't mind the castle and incubator build lengths, it may not give you much xp(which is a good thing) but the benifits to upgrade them is you can get the next tier dragon. Maybe try to strategize your builds, like storage/castle towards end of fortification events


              • #11
                Very nice thread, curious about a PG statement on this one.
                MareZ ~ lvl20X ~ Garnet Tier Dragons

                Important Threads to find everything you need


                • #12
                  First of all, good post. Here are my thoughts on it:

                  1) This is the exact thing i have proposed many times except i suggested 20% per tier until at 50% but overall same principal. However PG doesn't seem to like it and has never directly responded to this suggestion.

                  2) Sure wood and foods packs should be updated a bit, but in reality not a huge hindrance to the game in general. lets focus on points 1 and 3.

                  3) I actually don't think they need to increase timers in chests. If they did the whales would only be getting more timers at a faster rate than the rest of us so this would make the gap larger, not smaller. I will prefer to see them scale the build times like you(we) proposed in point one. Now that level 45 towers are not even close to the highest they dont need to cost 45 days. Only the newest wave of building levels should have such high costs... IE. 50-55 leave as they are. 45-50 reduce by 20%. 40-50, reduce until they are same cost as the level 35 towers. Something to help the less wild spenders have a somewhat relevant base. At lvl300 I have practically given up on my base. It will never be max so i only focus on dragons now... this shouldn't happen but i almost don't see the point is leveling my base any longer.

                  4) Yes the build times for insignificant builds is outrageous. Why does it cost 1.4 million lumber and 1.5 months to build an extra shed to store 20k lumber! god damnit PG let us buy a damn TARP!!!

                  5) Transfer amount have not been updated in a while, but again, not a huge issue. Lets focus on points 1 and 3.


                  • MikeGoN2GetU
                    MikeGoN2GetU commented
                    Editing a comment
                    scale as new towers are introduced. Your own personal level doesn't matter. basically everything old speeds up as new content is released. (breeding and building)

                  • ToNyRen
                    ToNyRen commented
                    Editing a comment
                    What you're proposing is equivalent to a progressive income tax plan. The more you can get cash in during a certain time period and you'll have to pay a larger share. This works in reality, but I think you're missing a point in order for it to complete MikeGoN2GetU

                    The tax collected are used to benefit the entire society, at least the goal was. So whales can pay more for the same towers, yeah sure. But their extra payment for the same thing needs to have a place to go and there needs to be a system for them to get things back. Like the more tax you pay, the more you'll get from your retirement accounts.

                    It's not whales' fault that they're whales. It's not non-whales fault to be non-whales. Neither should get punished all the way without any kind of compensation for being them.

                  • MikeGoN2GetU
                    MikeGoN2GetU commented
                    Editing a comment
                    ToNyRen, the fact of the matter is their is an increasing Gap between the whales and even the heavy spenders. over the past year PG has been releasing new tiers of dragons and with them new tower levels at an alarming rate in order to ensure there is new content for the whales. Which makes sense.

                    However because they are expanding the game in a way that caters to the whales, those who can't keep pace (99% of the game) fall further and further behind. This model is unsustainable in the long term. However i also realize they can't just make it super easy for non heavy spenders to maintain a max base and the newest dragons. By proposing they reduce the cost of towers and dragons as new content is released it will allow for spenders to stay relevant at the pace this game is expanding. They will still need to spend considerably to stay even where they are in relation to the whales. I certainly dont want old content to be too easily achieved.

                    You used the tax example. I look at it more like buying a new car. The newest (obsidian dragons and towers leveled 51-55) have their price, whatever it may be (currently 45+ days and 143k tokens). Fine, so for my example this is the cost of this years car. But next year when a new model is released (or in 3 months given how fast this game is expanding) would we still pay the same amount for last years model or car? If i were to go out right now and buy a new 2018 (they are starting to come out now) I would expect to pay full MRSP or close to it as they have just been released and very few incentives are being offered for them. However at the same time i can opt for the 2017 model and save thousands because the old is reduced as the new is released. This is easy to see with dragons, the newest and the greatest should be expensive, as they are the best. But once they no longer are the best i just feel they shouldn't have the premium cost associated with them.

                    Fine if you want to leave the system the way it is now so be it. Many games have. Every game i have played that has followed that model has collapsed. My suggestion allows players who are behind to continually gain new and exciting game content (albiet out dated) while at the same time still forcing those who want to newest and the greatest to pay for it (as they do now).

                    I am at the point where doing this actually wouldn't benefit myself hugely, although it would a bit i must admit. I did not make this proposal because i am too cheap to spend and just want all the content free/easily accessible. I made this proposal to help maintain a healthy gap between players at all levels and all spending habits.
                    Last edited by MikeGoN2GetU; 09-11-2017, 10:18 AM.

                • #13
                  The gap itself doesn't concern me at all. I don't compare myself to others. There will be people ahead of me (some waaaay ahead) and some behind. What I do care about is progress. Being excited that a breeding event is coming so I can get a new dragon. Logging on several times a day to do Multis and tasks. If that all grinds to a halt soon, where is the incentive to keep playing? This is a game that is supposed to be fun, not a boring grind. It's for this reason I think these points need to be addressed. The whales are quite welcome to their Titanium tier
                  ZenWarriors - always looking for active players


                  • MareZ
                    MareZ commented
                    Editing a comment
                    What absolutely kills the game flow for years are events like fort and breed and feed that make people stall their progression to do well. I don't know any other game that does this. But since it's an easy way to get a good event score I probably shouldn't complain unless they could substitute those events with other events that are just as easy to score in (like XP event).
                    Imagine if there were no events that totally mess up the economy, the game would be a nice and constant grind, everyday you would have something to do.

                  • Blah765
                    Blah765 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    MareZ I wonder if those type events (breed/feed/build) could be restructured so that they're measured either over a month or over a season with appropriately scaled rewards. That way there isn't this start and stop cycle; you just progress and based on that long term progress, you're rewarded.

                  • MikeGoN2GetU
                    MikeGoN2GetU commented
                    Editing a comment
                    True it is best not to compare yourself to others. But the Gap will eventually have an effect on the whole game if not addressed. It may take a while but it will and that should concern us all. If the whales get too far ahead they will eventually have very few bases to actually attack. This will get boring and risks them getting bored. Without the whales this game will fall as the 1% pays for 99% of this game for us. We need them to keep playing for the game to survive.

                    Even myself who is far from a whale finds myself seeing the same bases over and over again in the automatic pairing menu because there are only so many bases over level 300. Hitting below 300 is kinda boring and i dont even have an obsidian yet. When i do i imagine i will be looking for bases over 350 and there are even fewer at that level. There is enough now to keep it interesting but again if the gap gets too big, the variety will become more limited.

                • #14
                  Can i just get a confirmation that this has been seen? I understand the team is working very hard on the transfer of forums as well as working on the game. It's been four days and I haven't had a single reply or confirmation that this has been seen. Not wanting to prod, but I, and others, are eager for this conversation to get some light. Thanks!!!

                  EggToken PGJared CampusLifer


                  • MikeGoN2GetU
                    MikeGoN2GetU commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Ya i mentioned in my comment that PG hasn't directly responded the multiple times this exact suggestion as been brought up.

                • #15
                  I had read this thread. I've also recently commented on threads on related subjects written byTheRedDelilah and Panda .

                  to be clear, unlike our ticket queue in Helpshift, our PX team does not provide any sort of SLA on response time or giving a response to every thread on this forum.
                  Last edited by CampusLifer; 09-13-2017, 11:45 AM.


                  • MikeGoN2GetU
                    MikeGoN2GetU commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks Campus lifer, but i have yet to see anything from you guys admitting that "the sapphire wall" is even a concern and they are going to take active measures to address it. Or did i just miss it?