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League Restructure Proposal (+Extrinsic Motivation Proposals)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Enilon View Post
    So you want everyone get less egg token every has been getting you know cost of Sapphire dragon in egg token.Have you read forum they ask more eggs for all leagues for new dragons
    My team has work hard to get this league and other team.You need rethink egg token
    Diamond league 3k egg token
    Garnet 2.5k egg token
    Sapphire 2k
    you are not getting Red's idea. The proposed structure is so that there multiple lvls of Sap league and Diamond league, a pyramid system per-se. The bottom of the pyramid will get less token and you need to fight (war) up the ladder in the same league to gain what the "true" Sap league payout. TBH and no offense to anyone, some of the Sap teams do not deserve to be in Sap and hence they should not get the same as the rest of the Sap teams, as Red mentioned, anything over proposed is crazy, nobody will work hard on their egg missions anymore with your proposed amount (14k a week for Sap team, over 100k in 2 month just sitting there doing nothing, granted no war loses). I personally dig the whole structure.
    Last edited by LordKaiS; 03-08-2017, 11:05 AM.


    • TheRedDelilah
      TheRedDelilah commented
      Editing a comment
      That's what I was trying to say without saying it. Looking at our Sapphire League this week - to tell me the top team and the bottom deserve the same rewards daily because they are of relatively equal strength is a joke.

      I think a kick in the butt and being made to work hard for the daily rewards (as well as the other things proposed) will really bring a new life to the game.

  • #32
    This is an incredibly well-prepared proposal, and I sincerely hope PG uses this as their template for improving leagues.

    Reminds me of the structure in CoC...


    • #33
      My only concern would be the number of teams with identical ratings (global ranking) messing with the numbers in the leagues. I guess it would be quite rare to have more than 50 teams all have the same rating in Sapphire I, for example, but it might be prudent to consider a contingency for that case.

      Other than that, I love the idea! The system now clearly creates an oversaturation in Sapphire, and this proposal addresses that quite nicely and with a lot of thought put into it. To tell it from my perspective, we are currently about to move up into Sapphire (as soon as people stop jumping ship when we tell them we are moving up...). This proposal would drop us into Plat III, which would not change very much at all.

      Seeing a greater progression in token payouts as well as larger incentives in personal and team prizing would definitely motivate us to move up at a faster rate, especially that huge jump from platinum to sapphire.

      The war multipliers are an interesting idea. I'm not sure I agree with the rating multiplier, though. I understand the rationale, but I think it may make it basically impossible to catch the current big teams. It ends up inflating rating (since there is not a 1:1 exchange) in all tiers, but in the high tiers the most. If a team in Diamond wars and wins, they would then need to lose 10 times in a row to be brought back to their previous rating (which would then increase the rating of those other teams 10 times faster). Perhaps it's not as dire as it seems to me, since Garnet would have 8x and Sapphire I would have 6x, but I'm just thinking that a team in Garnet would need to win all of their wars in order to just keep pace with a Diamond team that only wins 1 out of 3 wars. As for the multiplier on tokens, LOVE the idea! Don't touch that.

      Team prizes are, I agree, kind of a joke... at least in comparison to the individual prizes. It is my belief that team prizes should be boosted greatly at the top end, and the boost should just be scaled downward as you go down in leagues. I do see PG's point, but I think your counter-proposal is good enough. I think the team prizes are so piddly in comparison to what they should be, that even with the vast increase in number of tiers required, there should be room to make sure that, at the very least, you get the same prize at #25 in one league up as you do for #1 in your current league. Perhaps this should be fleshed out more to actually show comparisons to current prize tiers. All that said, I do not believe that PG will ever poll the community and give out glyphs based on that. I'm fairly certain that the glyphs that are offered in team prizes (and individual prizes, for that matter) are random on purpose, to create a real sense of rarity when the ones you do want actually show up. Honestly, I think the first thing to change about glyphs is the addition of glyphs that boost upper tier dragon spells (or your suggestion, which I think is both better for the population and easier to implement) before we even touch how they attributed in prizing.

      Your take on Individual prizes is interesting. It seems like it would be one of the cleanest ways to implement some sort of incentive to move up in leagues based on them. I like it. I used to think that there needed to be some sort of change to the way PvP points are awarded to disincentivise sandbagging, but I think these changes might make that a moot point. At a maximum at implementation, I would suggest a multiplier for points based on league (that didn't get too aggressive at the high end, perhaps just a 1.25 multiplier at the highest end).

      Finally, I wanted to bring up a point I made in a different thread concerning PG's perceived lack of ability to listen to it's player-base. Echo and CampusLifer have both commented on this thread and said that they would be looking at this suggestion very closely, bringing it to the attention of the whole team. I believe them when they say this. However, we as players need to understand that there will very likely be a long period of time where there is very little communication about this. If they did decide to implement this (in whole or in part) that decision would come at the end of many meetings weeks down the road at a minimum... and they wouldn't even have been working on it. Daily, or even weekly, updates at that point would also not happen. We would probably be lucky to get monthly updates from that point on. We, as players, need to understand this before we blast them for not caring or listening.

      P.S. I started writing this 3 hours ago, so forgive me if some of this has been addressed.


      • TheRedDelilah
        TheRedDelilah commented
        Editing a comment
        Marvin Lamb I'd love to hear more details on your thoughts via the multiplier and ratings here if that's okay!

      • vin28
        vin28 commented
        Editing a comment
        team with lower average level gets ranked higher maybe? means they are working harder for that rank than the other people they are tied with.

      • Sabin76
        Sabin76 commented
        Editing a comment
        TheRedDelilah But if you are at the top of your league and can only declare on people below you, then you will be gaining rating (on average) slower than a low ranked team in the league above you. This is what I meant by inflation.

        Say you are in Sapphire I in the #1 spot. You can only attack people below you and so your rating increase is low in comparison to others in your league for a win. The #25 team in Garnet, however, has many options for attacking that would not only give them better base points, but since they are in Garnet, a better multiplier on top of that. They would need to lose A LOT in order for the Sapphire I team to simply keep pace with their rating.

    • #34
      THIS!! Some of these points have been proposed before but this is an incredibly thought out and organized proposal, complete with a bow on top. Thanks TheRedDelilah. Personal prizes per league should be first to be implemented IMO as this can be done without the league restructure.

      CampusLifer Echo EggToken PGJared Please please please keep us updated on the status and likely hood of this being implemented and a ballpark timeline.


      • #35
        Thanks for posting this Red. Very well done. If i could add something that i think may be of some benefit. Not sure if it goes along with the whole league restructuring but would be a good thing to possibly include in the whole token revamp issue we are discussing here.

        Make Zeppelin mission token payouts scaleable with the mission difficulty/player level

        1) This would give more tokens to the people who log in and grind every day for tokens. They use potions and food to do more runs than are typically necessary and it is a way to reward players for their flying efforts no matter what tier they are in.
        2) Having this scaleable by level would offset some of these lower league deductions for automatic tokens per day. That means if a long time sapphire member wants to take a bit of a break and spend time away from the game and only log in every few days for a few hours that they can still earn a reasonable amount of tokens while sitting in a lower league so they aren't completely out of the game.
        3) This would introduce a larger stream of tokens into the upper levels of play where it is actually needed for these insane levels of breeding instead of giving more to a low level player sitting up in a higher level than they should be in. They both grind for tokens but it is obvious that one player should be receiving more tokens than the other.
        4) This would be an easy implementation i believe since they already have a table of level vs missions. Simply adding a few columns with the three payout levels may be easy enough to reference without a ton of work in the programming department. We need to make these changes as simple as possible


        • #36
          Don't complain you don't get enough egg token I agree League need work but when lots of player has ask more egg token daily for new tiers dragons.


          • LordKaiS
            LordKaiS commented
            Editing a comment
            again I think you are missing the point, no offense, Red's overall structure is to increase the vitality of the game/league, yes, everybody wants more eggs, but there are lazy teams out there that don't work half hard as some, why should they be rewarded the same as those that works hard??? don't just focus on the egg payout but look at the over all game, because it seem like that's the only thing you are latching on.

          • PlayerJ
            PlayerJ commented
            Editing a comment
            I understand you, Enilon.
            I agree with you 100%.

            They don't understand you because they are the ones who will benefit.
            They don't care if you get less tokens because they are the ones who will be getting the tokens.
            Last edited by PlayerJ; 03-10-2017, 04:59 AM.

        • #37
          Red, I like your proposal really well thought out well done.

          Enilon what level are you? Not trying to be rude just trying to understand the perspective you are coming from.

          You see I like Red's plan, my main is a 300+ I spend hours upon hours on the account every single week day and even more on weekends as do most if not all at that level for the sake of my team but other than that there is very little to non existent reward for the level of work put in. The simple cost for consumables is insane and far exceeds the so called rewards.

          Yet my Alt account is only a little baby lvl63 or something like that. While the team it is sitting in is in Sapphire right now it is likely one of the teams that would be pushed down the rankings in Reds model. Still I agree with it. I'd be lucky to spend 4 hours a week on that account. I can breed multiple dragons every breed. If the account gets a couple of 12hr speed ups and a couple of healing potions, awesome! so useful! The team is growing and fighting to do so but still, it is not what I would think of as a true Sapphire top level team. The average players are just too low.

          For my main account the handful of paltry timers, tokens, heals etc compared to what is required is a joke and for the most part worthless.

          Apart from all of that I think Red's plan would help bring back and revitalise growth and competition. Right now the game is stagnating. If it is to survive there need to be a reason for player to compete and grow.


          • #38
            As long as my activity is rewarded even if I cant spend money on this game or wont, which ever. I do not mind the changes. I'm not the highest of levels, only lvl 90 as of now, and entering my platinums, But I am already seeing the problems.. I cant lvl up myself or my dragons fast enought to breed anything at some events, other than research, which I feel is rather worthless as I am going to be at the super expensive dragons in just a moment. This wall, has made me a little discouraged and has dipped onto my activity a little bit.
            But with these changes, my activity would be rewarded again and I would be able to grow and breed dragons of increasing cost within reasonable time, not one dragon every 3 months.. (refering to sapphires as f2p)


            • #39
              Great post Red. Agree that something needs to be done to address the stagnation. When teams are actively going out of their way to avoid the top league and/or wars, there is a real issue with the fundamentals of the game.


              • #40
                Another +1 to this proposal. Excellent ideas Red and co! The best part is its not just saying "give me more stuff for free" like most ideas. Rewards are scaled with the time and work involved AND it seems this would simultaneously boost revenue for PG while also breathing life into all leagues and increasing motivation to compete. Ideas that do all this are hard to come up with but I think you nailed it and I really hope they consider implementing this asap.
                Last edited by Owlrager; 03-09-2017, 08:40 AM.


                • #41
                  So.... how can we add this to the "roadmap"? @PG CampusLifer PGJared Echo

                  Sure anything like this might take a lot of time and resources to implement but could the next fiscal quarter or even year have this as part of the map?


                  • #42
                    With people complaining about various things on the forums and in line chats, etc, I want to bring this petition back to the top. It addresses a lot of issues including wars, prizes, leagues, and egg tokens.

                    I love seeing other items and inputs and I'm sure, as a community, we can come up with some more ideas.

                    Im aware I'm an optimist and I'm aware these things would take take even if PG decides to go with some. Just be an optimist me with for a bit.
                    Love Red,

                    Leader of Rulith
                    Lover of Spreadsheets

                    Helpful Threads:
                    How to Build YOUR Ultimate Breeding Path
                    Red's Breeding Paths: Sapphire to Emerald

                    Rulith's Website:
                    All Breeding Paths
                    Red's Guide to Flying Hunters
                    Dragon's, etc.

                    Twitter - @TheRedDelilah


                    • Oldmandragon
                      Oldmandragon commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I appreciate seeing your optimism.

                      I am not hopeful, however.

                      Especially considering what they did to various parts of the game with this last update that was supposedly to fix bugs.
                      Noticed they haven't responded to those issues either?
                      Well, except that "their looking into it". Yeah, I'm looking into it also. All I see is a broken game and incompetence. I wonder if they see anything different than that.

                      Good luck Red. Sure wish you were there and employed, helping these carbon units how to be something more than hairless apes scratching their asses.

                  • #43
                    Its nice how Red worked about it , thank you firstly !

                    In my opinion the saphire leagues could be classified... Because every week when our leage changes... the gap between teams in same league is huge!
                    Teams with about 1800-1900 points until Teams about 1400-1500 points... This big teams should be together... so there level are arround 200-300 mostly aswell. To beat that as a team with 100-130 level players its mostly not realistic..

                    Maybe the names wont be as here... and maybe the payment not similar too... , but at least a system should be , to have balanced leagues..
                    So its mostly about egg token what we speaking about, and wars, which arent worth them,....

                    Hope in wars there can be extraprices for a won war , as mentioned before, a treasure similar to event, for winner, and for looser a small pack... Depend on something, maybe totall flams or idk.
                    Main points are that classify, and increasing of egg token some how...
                    In past the gain from chest was maybe about 60% higher... when just platin tier was out... and after saphire and garnet where it had to be more ... it was going down in many ways...

                    Lets see.. it wont be in 1 week or 1 month done... but we hope , it will be in some .


                    • #44
                      A couple things:
                      Lower end payouts in lower leagues are OK. When you're in a lower league, you're probably breeding lower end dragons, which are cheaper. So, platinum tier dragons (which diamond token payouts were balanced for the last time they were adjusted) would be OK in sapphire league. And less in lower leagues, since you're breeding blue or orange tier, or whatever the case may be. The payout just has to pay for them, and by the time you're into higher dragons, you should be in a higher league. By the time you have platinum tier dragons, it should be very easy to find a spot on a sapphire league team, or just be in sapphire league if everyone has been growing their base together on that team for that long. What I'm saying is that the league payout should reflect the cost of dragons at the tier you should be at to be in that league. Which the proposal does a good job at. If you decide to sandbag it and dominate some really weak league with really strong dragons, that should come at a cost.

                      That being said, diamond needs to pay a lot more, and it's even worse than what you're showing. Worse because you're not just getting those 3 dragons, but maybe like 6-7 dragons as breeders. 1 or 2 might actually be useful to fly, but the rest are garbage priced at 125k-140k tokens that only even exist to make it possible to breed those useful dragons. So you're really looking at token amounts in the millions, not just 473k, all things considered.

                      To put into perspective, gold tier also had a cost in breeders leading up to the legendaries, but it cost less to make the breeders than then actual legendaries themselves. 45k, if I remember right, leading up to the 100k. In sapphire/garnet tier, you're spending at least twice as much on breeders you'll never fly a single time in a war than on dragons you actually care about. So like 1m+ cost probably, before you even the opportunity to spend those 473k.


                      • #45
                        I agree with your ideas, Red. I can't say anything regarding big spenders, as I'm not using money on this myself, but I think it looks like these changes would benefit everyone.

                        I joined back when there was only 3 gold dragons to get (nearly two years ago), and this game has really needed to change since plat dragons were released, because this is a game build for gold tier dragons. Your changes would help a lot here.

                        It is a lot of changes though, so I think it would take a lot of time to implement (probably in small steps), but I hope pg will try to do it regardless, even if it ia only some of the changes that are possible. I would even take the tons of bugs that would follow with the updates.