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  • #31
    Re: Time commitment. My personal opinion is that we don't give anyone the guarantee that they can be a top player or a top team -- we don't assume that every single player can or should be "the winner". This is definitely not a game where "every single person gets to win" --- that's not one of our goals for how the game should be. Being at the top means that you've done some combination of really high activity, diplomacy, team management, coordination, skill and money. That's what it takes to be at the top. If you don't think that's for you, what we do is provide a game which is actually really fun even if you're in platinum or gold tier.

    People who want to be at that top tier of gameplay self-select that it's something that they find valuable and want to do. What we do try our best to make a goal of the game is saying that every point along that curve of getting stronger and playing at your own self-selected level feels fun and rewarding. Working your way through the red tier and getting Kinnara is fun --- even if youre just sitting in bronze tier. Winning your first wars and working into gold/platinum tier with your team is fun --- even if you only login once or twice a day to do your war attacks. There's tons of ways to have fun in this game and have without spending money, without playing 24h a day ---- but yes --- you're not going to be at the very top of the leaderboard. That's for the people who self-selected into deciding that's something they really want and are willing to do what it takes to be there. And yes, over time some of those people will decide that they don't want to "keep it up" and some other set of people will overtake their position on the leaderboard as they dial it back. In my opinion, that's OK -- and just what happens when you say "someone (not everyone) has to win" --- there needs to be some vector which they are out performing the other people.

    Statements saying that you "can't progress or have fun without playing all day" are pretty much incorrect. The game still works fine and is pretty fun if you don't play like a superhardcore player (and this is how a huge portion of the playerbase chooses to play). Yes, you probably can't cut it in Sapphire/Diamond -- definitely true. Those teams will kick you out. But if you login 2-3 times a day and do a couple of attacks each time you will definitely finish your war attacks, have a little time to chat with your team and make some progress on building towers and towards breeding the next dragon. I've personally definitely had periods of ~6 months where I was really busy and just played enough to do my war attacks, collect my daily tokens, breed, get some XP. Sometimes I did my event activities, but honestly not always. Playing game like this is actually pretty fun and not very time intensive -- you still win a new dragon every couple of weeks and level the ones you have up every few days.

    Pretty related: In my own personal opinion no one in the game is ever guaranteed to reach the top of the content and stay there for any specific amount of time. I personally think that in the ideal world there is some set of dragons that no one in the game has yet attained. This goal isn't to have a game where large portions of the players have "beat it" and are sitting at the end with max power. Everyone should continually always have something to keep building and striving for in the ideal world --- and, in my own personal opinion, if they happen to max out they don't have any guarantee that they get to stay in that state for any specific period of time before more content comes out. I realize that this is actually in opposition to the things PGJared has stated and might be the opposite of the official company position, but it's my own personal opinion. IMO, in an ideal world there are so many dragons that no one ever maxes out and there's always more to get and look forward to -- no one ever is at a state where they run out of that they want dragons and aren't bothering to work towards anything.
    Last edited by CampusLifer; 01-04-2017, 10:57 PM.

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    • itsjustjoe
      itsjustjoe commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree with this CampusLifer Now here comes my rant...

      I may be of the minority, but in life, not everybody wins - not by a long shot... I personally enjoy the game, and I enjoy my team... I have zero expectation of 'catching up' to people who have been playing and spending for years. I know I'll never be the top dog, and as much as I love my team, we're never going to compete with DREAD... and that's GREAT! It's still a lot of fun, I have still met some great people, and there's still competing to be done - even if not for #1 in the world.

      This idea of catch-up mechanics boggles my mind! I mean no disrespect to anyone who disagrees with me, but this idea of a new player being able to catch up to people who have invested years, countless hours, and large sums of money without themselves investing equally is insulting to those who put in the work. If you were a level 300, had spent the last 2 years and hundreds of dollars per month or MORE, would YOU think it's fair for a newbie to just catch up without having a similar investment? I'd be pissed! This mentality where everyone should be able to catch up and compete with the most senior players and biggest spenders is effing ridiculous! What a whiny, cry baby, borderline socialist ideology! If you want to be the best, there is definitely a price to pay for it... you decide if that's something you want to achieve and if the end will justify the means. Not everyone can be the best, nto everyone can win every time, not everyone deserves a damn trophy or medal - in life or this game... One thing I enjoy about this game is that you don't HAVE TO be the best to have fun. You start out with baby dragons against baby bases... you gradually improve your dragons, and you gradually get introduced to stronger competition... Eventually you WILL peak in relation to where you stand with your peers. It's not like you start off at level 1 getting hammered by level 100+ players.

      Geez, AcrobaticAttackCatSnacks grumpy old man attitude is rubbing off on me
      Last edited by itsjustjoe; 01-05-2017, 07:42 AM.

    • vin28
      vin28 commented
      Editing a comment
      " I was really busy and just played enough to do my war attacks, collect my daily tokens, breed, get some XP. Sometimes I did my event activities, but honestly not always. Playing game like this is actually pretty fun and not very time intensive -- you still win a new dragon every couple of weeks and level the ones you have up every few days. "

      can i ask what dragons are you on? i cant see this happening past blue tier. my amarok just went from 23 to 24 and required 195k food. how was he to gain a level by doing a "couple of attacks per login" when you cant hold any more than 50k food before getting raided. And if you decide to raid you cant find more than 15k-17k per raid that is atleast 12 raids to feed him (more than 12 cause you will be raided atleast 2-4 times while you are raiding yourself).

      itsjustjoe the catch up mechanics are not meant to rush you to the top but give you a fighting chance. Usually such games just start new servers occasonally but since war dragons doesnt some necessary chatchup mechanics are as follows:
      1. Backbreeding this already exists to a certain extent.
      2. Delaying new tiers. (I guess the player base agrees with this)
      3. Increase food/wood/eggtoken production by decent amount(30% increase every year or so) this will allow newer players to "git gud" faster.

      I agree that the leaders have spent time and effort to get there and yes to a certain extent the new players will have it easier. but without such mechanics in play newer players will never invest into the game. Would you invest 2 years and 10k USD now, knowing you wont ever catchup even after you have done so? And no I am not saying new players should be able to compete with dread within 6 months of starting. I am saying that if a player is extremely active and has decent investments he should be able to catchup to sapphire league top players in a year or so. No newer players means dwindling playerbase and bye bye war dragons. So although slightly unfair to top players it is a necessary evil to keep the game alive.

    • Kittens
      Kittens commented
      Editing a comment
      A big problem with the ideal of there always being dragons that nobody has attained is that people can spend obscene amounts of money to get there instantly. It's a recipe for one man teams, since the biggest spender is the one who has the biggest dragons and base, and the entire rest of the team is irrelevant. All they have to do is show up. If it's actually realistic to have the best dragons, the best team needs such things as teamwork, flying skills, and everyone matters. That makes for a better game IMO.

  • #32
    Originally posted by CampusLifer View Post
    Re: Time commitment.


    I've personally definitely had periods of ~6 months where I was really busy and just played enough to do my war attacks, collect my daily tokens, breed, get some XP. Sometimes I did my event activities, but honestly not always. Playing game like this is actually pretty fun and not very time intensive -- you still win a new dragon every couple of weeks and level the ones you have up every few days.
    is that a typo or was your account still in the first 1-3 dragon tiers? a new dragon every couple of weeks while only logging in a few times a day for 20 min maybe?


    anyway, regardless, I agree with you on the time req, etc. many games are that way, and many others are set up with a more balanced time vs money situation... i.e. a player can excel by devoting a lot of time to the game, whereas another player can achieve the same goals by spending less time but more money, and of course you have players who spend more time AND more money to get to the top. not everyone can do that, that's understood.

    I agree with the other comments by others on catchup mechanics. the only thing that's a saving grace for new players is the new seasonal divines, imo, as they can get one every 3 months with a reasonable combo of time/money, so they have at least 1 decent dragon (although they still have to progress through the tiers to evo them). other games have natural stat inflation that allows new players to catch up by spending money, the problem with WD is that the game is a very linear progression that requires players to BOTH level their base AND progress through the dragon breeding tiers. nobody wants an expert garnet being flown by a level 60, but a more realistic option should be to tie ALL dragons to level instead of breeding progression. dragons unlock via level, not breeding path. this would allow new players to spend to advance their base while not having as big a burden of spending for drag tokens to breed their way through 6 or more tiers of dragons. anyway that's probably a discussion for another time.

    the new problem that's been introduced by PG with the accelerated release of new tower levels and the garnet tier is that the middle class feels squeezed now. players who used to throw down $100 a week or $100 a month now see that amount not really getting them anywhere in the game because the requirements for the new content are so high.

    for example, a player just got to sapphire tier when garnets were released. prior to that release, that player could continue to work on the top tier of dragons, breeding new ones and leveling the ones they had. they knew they wouldn't have 3-5 expert mythics/legends or a full base of lvl 40 towers like the big spenders, but they at least felt somewhat competitive and able to contribute in diamond league, and the money they spent each week or month helped them achieve more prizes and they saw themselves at least inching towards some maxed towers and maxed dragons. but now the garnet tier and 44 towers are out. now the player that just got to sapphire tier isn't looking at trying to scrape together another 125k tokens for another sapphire legend or 200k for a sapphire mythic, they're looking at:
    125k for one sapphire legend
    125k for another sapphire legend
    200k for a sapphire mythic
    125k for another sapphire legend
    145k for a garnet legend

    even if you assume the player already had a couple of sapphire legends, they're still now staring the reality of 200k + 125k + 145k = 470k tokens to be able to "get back where they were" in relation to their previous progress. one second a medium spender is at least within striking distance of the top dragons and now their goal of another 125k or 200k turns into double or triple or quadruple that... they start to look at the numbers and decide its not worth their time or their money any longer

    and that's not even bringing into the discussion lvl 44 towers, the sapphire egg requirements for the builder hut or the ridiculous timers required for storage and towers above 40

    I'm sure someone on PG's end has run the math and decided that getting money from the top spenders is worth it, and I'm not trying to make an economical argument here since I'm guessing PG knows what makes them money and what doesn't, but just pointing out that you've sort of priced out a lot of your medium spenders. these are the players who do play competitively and what to see a return on their gaming investment, and to continue to spend only to continue to fall further behind is a losing endeavor for these players, and they'll move on to another game where they get a better return on their investment in regards to game progress. the only thing keeping many players around right now is their social relationship with other players or their teams, but putting more stress on activity/event/war/time requirements such as war tiebreakers, longer events, higher prize tiers, the world map; that doesn't enhance the social aspect of the game at the highest (spending) levels, it actually stresses it to the point of breaking, and you see players leave the game.

    Comment


    • itsjustjoe
      itsjustjoe commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree with you on the fact that, the more you progress in the game, the less your dollar is actually worth... This essentially makes a larger middle class though... the big spenders will keep spending big - never gonna catch them (which I believe is fair, as they're investing heavily to be at the top), the non spenders will keep being miserly (That's me, BTW)... so it kinda helps close the gap between the low/no spenders and the mid spenders... and I agree - not a good return on investment, which SHOULD ultimately cause less to invest, eventually hitting the PG bottom line. I'm with you - not going to argue the economics from PG's standpoint, but I am certainly not enticed into spending, knowing I will get the same/similar resources from gold chests as a level 50 would, since the same resources don't go nearly as far for me.

      No way in hell I would pay real dollars to gamble on the contents of gold chests KNOWING that even IF I got ONLY egg tokens and mystic fragments, the 'Epic' and 'Legendary' quantities don't come anywhere close to helping me progress...

    • aldinach
      aldinach commented
      Editing a comment
      Great post, that's exactly the spot I am at. I'd reached the point of having 2 sapphire legends (not including NightShade and Skarr) and 1 mythic (through a lot of grinding and not much spending), but when the Garnet tier came out, I was suddenly 3 months away from being able to progress to that next tier. As someone who doesn't spend a lot of money on the game, it's hugely demotivating to see that large a gap between any real progress.

      Not only that, but because my next dragons are Quetz (back-breed), Scorchil, and then Iteru who all are utterly useless compared to Sekhem and Nightshade, it's 3 months of boredom ahead with no good dragons to progress. Then because I'm stuck on a sorcerer path, I must breed a sorcerer first, who I really don't like to fly, and after that the path to a garnet hunter is months more away.

      I'm fine with the argument that not every player should be on top, but with the way garnets are rolled out you've slowed the pace at the top of the game for those that don't spend a ton to a glacial pace, and the fun is just completely lacking with that outlook ahead.

  • #33
    Agree 100% with Clays post. To add to his points, a big difference between wd and a few other very fun games ive played is that in the other games, you could reach end game content while spending very little if any money. Yes it might take a year or two, even three of playing religiously, but you could close the gap between where you are at and the end game through effort. Plenty of people spent lots of money in these games to get there faster, and continue to spend. In wd, its mathematically impossible to ever reach the end through effort and dedication (even with spending a moderate to what most sould consider a lot of money).
    This difference is why the biggest spenders are spending more and more (but in increasingly smaller numbers as far as I have seen) and the above average spenders are spending less and less. The people who didnt already spend are surely not going to start now, theres no point.
    The other games have prospered for long periods of time and show no signs of that changing. Take the wd method to its logical end/extreme and you have about 50 players in the game total, all spending thousands a week and just playing against eachother. Thats not a game anymore.
    I admit this viewpoint is from somebody who wants to be able to compete with the best. Not necessarily be top in the world, but be up there with the elite. But thats why a lot of people play games like this, for the competition. Limit their ability to do that and they will find somewhere that doesnt.
    _____________🗡🐥🔪_____________

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    • Sprectomegakai
      Sprectomegakai commented
      Editing a comment
      It's a spending competition, not a game.

    • Gary2975
      Gary2975 commented
      Editing a comment
      And that's the problem. PG are tailoring the entire game to the 0.5% at the very top and essentially ignoring what is best for everyone else.

      From a business perspective, doing that is throwing all your eggs in one basket and generally not a smart move. If PG catered to the majority of their playerbase, as most smart game companies do, then they would have a lot more spending players.

      You are MUCH better off having 50,000 players spending $100 each a month than 500 players spending $10,000 each a month, despite it equalling the same total income amount ($5 million). You have a stronger safety net, more potential for appealing to new players and also word of mouth from existing players gaining new ones and a bigger market share.
      I'm still of the view PG use an outdated model and have the time requirements set WAY too high in this game.

  • #34
    The idea of there always being a tier of new dragons that no one is actually at yet is ridiculous lol. You will NEVER find that in any game. There will always be the exception, always that top amount of huge spenders who want to get that. And that's great, good for them. But with that idea PG has made it impossible for people who don't spend a ton to get top tiers. They organized the breeding paths for sapphire and garnet to make sure you spend the maximum amount of tokens possible. By the time garnet tier came out I had almost every sapphire, but I was still 700k tokens away from the garnet I wanted. It's obvious they want to push spending further and further. But what they have done is made a division in the players. I'm a player from Dread, we have the most big spenders and benefit from it the most, yet I still disagree with this divide you are making. It isn't healthy for the game at all. You are now forcing it into two groups, massive spenders or not at all. Before, people could casually spend or moderately spend and still get stuff done. But now we have only the two extremes. And that's one of the biggest reasons this game is starting to break down

    Comment


    • Gary2975
      Gary2975 commented
      Editing a comment
      Exactly WesMan.

      PG continue to implement things to encourage more spending (new dragon tiers, dragon perches, etc), yet do zero to help players progress at a reasonable rate.

      Many game companies when introducing new major content will lessen the requirements for old content to assist players in getting to the *start point* of the new content faster and will also increase daily rewards and things like that to help all players feel like they are getting somewhere in the game and it is worth their time and money. But not PG.

      It seems like they will continue to isolate the vast vast majority of the playerbase in order to encourage more spending by the 0.5% ( and I'm being generous, the real figure is likely much smaller percentage than that).
      Last edited by Gary2975; 01-06-2017, 02:53 PM.

  • #35
    PGJared I am still waiting for an answer regarding what the curve was for fall sigils to gold chests. Because it seemed almost random to most players. People getting all sorts of random exchange rates. So I'd like to know what the curve was, how was it set

    Comment


    • PGJared
      PGJared commented
      Editing a comment
      I'm afraid I can't give out the exact numbers. It was N sigils per chest for the first X chests, and O sigils per chest for the next Y chests...

    • Had
      Had commented
      Editing a comment
      And has the exchange rate been fixed? Pgjared? If it's the same as last season at the very least I will stop spending. This needs to be fixed asap. There either needs to be HONESTY, where you tell us the exchange rate. Or the sigil numbers needs to be capped.

  • #36
    Originally posted by Goober View Post

    I have a feeling PG is starting to get the point. With the amount of spenders that have quit spending or have just totally quit, I think they are either going to get their heads out of their asses or shut the game down.

    Though that hat could be just wishful thinking on my part. I guess we'll see in 3 months if another tier comes out or not. 😜
    They won't 'shut the game down' as you put it. No game company in their right minds will. Take any long standing MMO for that, popular or not.

    You will end up with 2 types of players. The hyper-spenders addicted to the game, with a sunk cost fallacy driving their continued spending, and a ever revolving door of low and mid level players, that cycle out as they get bored and hit major walls against long veteraned teams and players.

    In the mean time, PG moved onto their next game release, and only keeps the game functional in it's current state, a skeleton crew continuing to work on minor bugs and fixes to keep the game from breaking entirely when android/iOS updates. They have enough 'dragon' content to last a moderately spending player YEARS, garnet dragons are pants on head retarded to breed, and the same for most of the sapphires.

    I have 60k egg tokens saved up. That isn't even enough for 1 gold legendary dragon, it's taken me $100 and weeks of saving to get to that point in egg tokens. There is no account for inflation, for growth in token costs to the players. We're paid a stagnant wage while the 'cost to breed dragons' is ever growing.

    What would show me PG is interested in not just jumping ship on this game? New tower appearances after level 15. Could be once every other level, once every 3 levels. New colors, and new designs to show off more and more veteraned, bad-ass bases with super strong towers. The same gold colored 5 barreled cannon gets boring. Where is our six barrel? Where is our two side mini barrels, where is new colors and designs for sapphire and garnet dragons? It would give the players a fresh appearance, and help keep that ever important 'feeling of progression' kindled and warm.

    Until they break this information embargo, until they are willing to TALK to us about the nice, comprised list of issues the players have spelled out for them, I have to assume PG is just pumping out a handful of 'extension' features that will fuel only the longest duration players, and it is all content new players won't even bother with, let along get to.

    If we were given all the back end info, I wouldn't be surprised if more than 50% of new players didn't even make it to green dragons, and quit before level 40-50. Unless you get lucky, or drive yourself to be active and jump tiers, starting in gold/plat is basically a must if you want to have lots of fun and not feel resource starvation induced frustration all the time. The game is unplayable with the rewards and payouts offered in those lower tiers. If I was in gold tier where a player around 60~80 belongs (Plat would be would be 90-120, Sapphire 130-150 diamond 185+) I would quit. The destiny sigil pay out is pathetic out there, not to mention all the other lackluster rewards. I wouldn't be able to dream of getting 1 dragons line complete by the end of the season, let alone the 3, plus a 4th were expected to.

    PG is out of touch, they get their initial investment from wide eyed players that end up jaded and jumping out before they reach 50.

    Oh, and to keep things positive, I'm glad the value packs got a boost in value overall, without changing the cost. It's quite nice.

    Comment


    • MareZ
      MareZ commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree with the first half of your statement, although I have to add that even if there are a lot of things wrong, many payouts such as rubies from value packs and rubies in personal prizes have been increased (as you said), I think even egg tokens went up and you need less sigils per tier in this season but more overall if you want to take it all the way up to Garnet.
      I do think that it should be easier for lower players to catch up but I never felt that the green tier is much of a blockade and even gold is worth the 100k tokens due to the power you unlock at 84. And league payouts might be low in lower leagues but everyone should be motivated to move up leagues and I don't consider anything below sapphire league an active league.
      The major wall I'm running against now is getting enough tokens together for sapphire mythics...

  • #37
    fuzzum111 I do realize that the game won't "shutdown". Instead of explaining exactly what you said, I went the short version and over exaggerated.
    x7DeadlyGoobsx

    Comment


    • #38
      Copy & Pasting my response from the following thread which was similar feedback as fuzzum111. i know he/she has read my response but just reitereating my response because he appears to be reiterating the same feedback point again. http://wardragons.pocketgems.com/for...on-war-dragons

      ---


      Hi. Pocket Gems has definitely not "given up on War Dragons". We have a big team of people working hard on improving the product on a bunch of different dimensions (spells and towers, events, server scalability, app stability, crossplatorm-android, improvements for other languages, big swing new designs,). We'll work harder to improve our communication and highlight the work we're doing to improve things.

      We fanatically track engagement, activity and "happiness" through a bunch of different methods. We definitely care a lot about this and we try to react as we can. We view this as the most important thing to optimize --- and having a growing playerbase is the the route to a growing game (and yes, revenue). One thing to understand is that this forum is not the only way we monitor the health of the game: This forum generally has a very different sample of players than our entire playerbase of millions --- often with the same 20-40 people saying the same things over and over in an echochamber. We do read the forum and view it as one of the qualitative ways to look at the health of the game for some of our highest level players, but we don't equate that to be representative of the entire game. I'll give you an example of this. Players on this forum love to point out problems with spells in the gold tier or sapphire tier of dragons. Guess which spell actually has the highest number of complaints across the entire playerbase is the "evasion" spell (remember that one where you fly really fast and is pretty broken?) --- no one on this forum ever talks about that spell even though it's the one effecting the highest number of players because the set of people on this forum aren't representative of the entire playerbase. We definitely care about fixing issues of the set of people who write on these forums (as they're some of our most hardcore players) but not at the exclusion of everyone else.

      We are dedicated to continuing to improve War Dragons -- both in terms of improving the existing feature set, expanding the content, and creating high very-different new features --- and that's not the kind of investment a company would do if they've "given up". Some players might not like the first cut at our "world map" beta feature --- but I think it's clear that companies don't make this kind of investment of creating HUGE risky new features for products if they have given up on the product and are only trying to harvest it for revenue.

      Dravoz is right. As you all know (see other posts) we're in a transition period with our community management. I honestly think the core problem right now is that we're working through this and need to tighten things up. In terms of the core product, in terms of actual bugs we've actually been relatively stable compared to many periods in the past --- for instance we had long periods where the rate that the game crashed was literally 12x higher than it is today, the game has a "sync error" restart in 1 out of 3 sessions, and battle disconnected so often between rounds so often that people never hit "invite teammates" before battle. It's really hard to argue that the game is at an all-time low in terms of core bugs and stability --- we've made massive improvements from those times and we continue to work hard to continue.

      --

      To add to that, for sure the investments we're making in the game are NOT "just content" --- it's patently false. e.g., whether you disagree with the direction of features like worldmap/perches you have to agree that they major large investments in creating new ways of playing which are not "just content".
      Last edited by CampusLifer; 01-11-2017, 01:44 PM.

      Comment


      • #39
        CampusLifer - thanks for the complete response. The reason I think the forums feel like an echo chamber is because PG doesn't prioritize the bugs that are most crippling to high-level players (who I believe are the ones who spend the most time here). Also probably because Joseph left and the void that he left is large at this point.

        The people on the forums dedicate a lot of time to the game, so when things like RSS protection are still broken 3-4 months after first being reported, which dramatically affects everyday game play (especially with the food shortage), and in the same period PG have released new dragons, towers, and perches, it's super frustrating that there isn't more attention paid to bugs like that that affect gameplay every single time you log into the game. RSS protection is just one example, and to avoid adding more echoes to the chamber, I'll just say there are other long-standing bugs too.

        Any ideas on what PG could do to re-prioritize some of the bigger player-impacting bugs like this or to better communicate that you recognize the importance of fixing this issue?
        "The only winning move is not to play" first Wargames, and now War Dragons

        Check out my Base/Fortification Event Planning Tool

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        • itsjustjoe
          itsjustjoe commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree with this. In addition to it, I think a lot of us here on the forums are a voice for the issues and such we see in team and league chat. I have not seen a recurring complaint on the forums that I hadn't also seen echoed through my team and league chat. It is my experience that the sentiments voiced here on the forums (negative AND positive) align very closely with that of the league and team chats. Regardless of what bug may be reported as the most glitched - what we talk about here is largely what is talked about in game. It may seem like an echo chamber, but that doesn't mean that we don't often represent the views and opinions of the majority of the player base.
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